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Religion » About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Fazil123(f) .:. Sat, 15 May, 2021 - 08:46:34:pm GMT

Courtroom exchanges between a Judge of the Law and Pastor Jones.

The truth about tithing
(unknown author)

Judge: Mr. Jones you have been charged with multiple counts of extortion. Your crime spree covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income as per the LAW to your Regd. organization (called Church) and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn't tithe God would curse them.
How do you plead?

Mr. Jones: I plead not guilty your Honor,
I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and gold.

Judge: Is it not true, Mr. Jones, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?

Mr. Jones: Yes, you are exactly right, that's what I just told you.

Judge: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13 but it is not until Genesis chapter 14 that we read about Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he tithed to Melchizedek, wasn't he?

Mr. Jones: Yes, I suppose you are right.

Judge: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?

Mr. Jones: No.

Judge: Mr. Jones, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?

Mr. Jones: Well, just once.

Judge: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?

Mr. Jones: No it does not.

Judge: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?

Mr. Jones: Well the Bible says it was from the plunders of war?

Judge: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?

Mr. Jones: Yes that's what the Bible says.

Judge: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?

Mr. Jones: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.

Judge: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?

Mr. Jones: I guess not

Judge: You guess not, you are a teacher and you are only guessing, is it or is it not written that he ever gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?

Mr. Jones: No it is not written anywhere that I have seen.

Judge: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?

Mr. Jones: I believe it says plunder?

Judge: So plunder could be any number of things?

Mr. Jones: Yes, I suppose

Judge: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people's possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money correct?

Mr. Jones: Yes you are correct, it does not say just money

Judge: As a matter of fact money is never mentioned in that account at all is that correct Mr. Jones?

Mr. Jones: Yes your Honor, money is never mentioned just goods and food and people.

Judge: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek any money at all?

Mr. Jones: That is right.

Judge: I only have one last question for you Mr. Jones, did God command Abraham to give this plunder tithe to Melchizedek?

Mr. Jones: No, it appears that he did this voluntarily.

Judge: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their weekly paycheck to a local Regd.Organization-church?
Considering all the evidence I would say you are beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty of deliberately trying to make the scriptures says things they have not said for financial gain.

Mr. Jones: Ok your Honor, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedeck to try and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.

Judge: Let's see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me Mr. Jones.

Mr. Jones: In Genesis chapter 28 starting at verse 20 it says. Jacob vowed a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, so that I come again to my father's house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God's house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you."

Judge: You said we should follow Jacobs example, is that right Mr. Jones?

Mr. Jones: Yes that is right, he vowed to give a tenth and we should too.

Judge: Let me point out one thing for you Mr. Jones, Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob's example and tell God that we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?

Mr. Jones: That is not what I meant.

Judge: What did you mean then?

Mr. Jones: That we should give God a tenth also.

Judge: There you go again, trying to make the scripture say what you want it to say for your benefit. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or levites to give it to at that time.

Mr. Jones: I can not think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.

Judge: It seems fairly obvious to me that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.

Mr. Jones: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.

Judge: You have not said anything yet to convince me one little bit that people are obligated to tithe money to the local organizational institutions -churches and that you were justified in what you were doing. You have taken scripture and misapplied it to your beliefs and for your gain. But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.

Mr. Jones: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. So you see your Honor, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.

Judge: Answer me this Mr Jones, Who was God Speaking to here?

Mr Jones: To the People of Israel

Judge: Can you please read Malachi 2: 1 Please Mr Jones

Mr Jones: Now This command is for you O PRIEST !!

Judge: Did God stop talking to the Priest in chp. 3 Mr Jones?

Mr Jones: No your Honor!

Judge: Answer me this Mr. Jones, were you aware that God never required anyone to tithe money?

Mr. Jones: No I didn't know that.

Judge: The tithe spoken of here was always edible products never money.

Mr. Jones: well your Honor that is because they didn't have money at the time so God had them tithe food instead.

Judge: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis and Malachi was written hundreds of years later. God had them bring food in so that the levites, the fatherless and widows may eat and be satisfied. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in my house. The food was the tithe. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?

Mr. Jones: I don't know

Judge: I also want you to know that these verses speak to nation under the Old Testament law. As you may or may not know Jesus fulfilled the law, it is no longer binding.
Once again you have tried to completely take a scripture out of context and apply it to others for your benefit. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?

Mr. Jones: I do not know of any.

Judge: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?

Mr. Jones: Man must have.

Judge: So far all you have done Mr. Jones, is take Old Testament scriptures out of context and try to apply it to believers under the New Covenant. Is this all the proof you have?

Mr. Jones: I do have a New Testament scripture that will show that Jesus told us to tithe.

Judge: Ok let me hear it.

Mr. Jones: Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone. See Jesus said we should be tithing.

Judge: Let me ask you a question, who was Jesus talking to?

Mr. Jones: The scripture says the Scribes and Pharisees.

Judge: Are you a scribe or Pharisee?

Mr. Jones: Of course not.

Judge: Jesus also said in that passage, you have left undone the weightier matters of the law. Are we under the law Mr. Jones?

Mr. Jones: No.

Judge: Why not?

Mr. Jones: Because Jesus fulfilled it.

Judge: When did Jesus fulfill the law?

Mr. Jones: When He was crucified.

Judge: So the law was still in effect until Jesus death?

Mr. Jones: That is correct.

Judge: I think you know where I am going with this don't you?

Mr. Jones: Yes your Honor. Since Jesus had not yet been crucified and the law was still binding the Pharisees were required to tithe because it was part of the law. Once the law ended, tithing ended also.

Judge: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?

Mr. Jones: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.

Judge: Is money mentioned?

Mr. Jones: No it was not.

Judge: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything else you would like to say?

Mr. Jones: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church survive? We have our mortgage payment, utility bills, staff salary and a host of other things that we have to pay each week. We depend on the money from the people.

Judge:By "church" you mean your organization isn't it Mr Jones ?
-The need does not justify the means. In other words, just because you have all these debts does not give you the right to twist and manipulate scripture and cause people to give under fear of being cursed by God to meet your needs. Does It Mr Jones?
In closing, let me recap a few things for you Mr. Jones.
-The tithe was never money
-The tithe was an Old Testament law, which is no longer binding. When it was binding the tithe was used to take care of people, not buildings.
- We are under a new covenant now.
Paul instructs the Corinthian believers how they are to give. He says in second Corinthians chapter 9 verse 7, Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart not grudgingly, or under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver. So each believer is supposed to give as he or she has determined in his or her heart.
If they determine to Give 10% well and good, If they keep aside some every week to meet this more better.If you are trying to make people give under the threat of being cursed or any other reason even blessing, you are wrong. Someone can not give cheerfully if they are being forced to give. If 'your church can not survive on freewill offerings maybe God is not part of your church at all.
Mr Jones, Do you intentionally put your people under a Curse or a Bondage?

Mr Jones: Of Course Not !!

Judge: Can you Read in context Gal 3:10-11 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them ....
Gal 5:1-4 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....

Mr. Jones: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the local church and that is what I have always taught. I can see now that I was completely wrong. I did not study the scripture for myself, I only took mans word for it.
Yes ' am guilty. I will not teach this error anymore.

Sentencing....... All Arise .......!!


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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ogiejoe(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 10:10:00:am GMT

I have reservations about this. Probably the pastor weren't allowed to fully explain what he understand regarding Tithe or that he didn't know more than the mere.

Yes Tithe from Abraham was voluntary and he gave from the spoil of war, yes he gave only one according to records. Yes, the high priest didn't request it as of records.

1. But truth behind it is that during the time of Abraham, there was no law which means that no one should say tithe is under the law,

2, during the time of Abraham, there was transactions base on goods for needs like giving yam to get rice or exchange of gold. There was no money. So, if Abraham spoils of war was animals and foods and gold, he can only offer animal and food and gold.

3, I don't recall how many wars Abraham fought because he was not a warrior, So, the one he fought, he took the tenth part and gave. There was no law, he did because he saw it right to do so. He may have been rich but no record of any new income or any new thing he received.

4, apart from that aspect of tithe in Abraham's time, there are other ways tithe was given and in different perspective and form but doesn't mean all were under the law because Abraham was not under the law. Yes the law was not abolished by Christ but was fulfilled which means what was lacking in the law was now completed. So, Christ didn't stop the but made a way for it through him. Christ didn't didn't stop giving because He even allowed a widowed who gave her everything to God and didn't stop her.

My conclusion, tithe is allowed and the only thing in Christ about tithe is that it is not a force to pay it. There may not be curse, but there is sure a blessing in it.

In new testament, 10% was not required. What was required is all. It may not be a mandatory thing. But asked that one should not give sparingly but bountifully which means you should give sacrificially ( which pains the heart😎


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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ogiejoe(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 10:12:22:am GMT


The issue of tithe has made people to be lazy on giving and some does not give again because they feel it's only when they have they can give.

To receive, one will have to give. You cannot reap when you don't sow. Many people don't give again because they feel its not obligated

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ojc(E)(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 10:18:46:am GMT

@ogiejoe: Giving is not obligated neither is it mandatory bro.

2 Corinthians 9:7 says You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.
Don't give when you're pressured to.

Make sure u're doing it from your heart.
Because there are blessings attached to giving and helping the church.
Instead of giving grudgingly, don't give at all....


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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Administrator(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 10:45:49:am GMT

The issue of tithe has made people to be lazy on giving and some does not give again because they feel it's only when they have they can give.
To receive, one will have to give. You cannot reap when you don't sow. Many people don't give again because they feel its not obligated
So, because people are lazy to give (according to your word), then it is now OK for "pastors" to be threatening people with the curse of God for not giving up a 10th of their salaries?
Did you even read the original article before commenting?

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ojc(E)(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 11:45:34:am GMT

@Administrator:As in ehn... I tire ooo...
A lot of pastors in Nigeria have made become so mandatory that they tend to even go as far as triggering into the mind of its members when they don't pay tithe.
Most pastors lay more emphasis on tithing make it look like a great sin when people don't pay tithe.
They keep quoting scriptures of the old testament that talks about tithing despite the fact that they know that tithing is a part of the old law Jesus Christ came to modify.
But they would never tell their members about it because it won't favour their pockets.

According to the new testament, we were asked to support God's ministry but we were not asked to pay tithes.
The Bible says and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
Let's be guided on this issue of tithing because it's a part of the old law Jesus Christ came to modify.

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ogiejoe(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 03:26:50:pm GMT


I read what you posted perhaps you didn't read mine. I stated that no giving is compulsory or mandatory. Tithe is in both in the law and out of the law because Abraham was not under any law.
If Bible record Tithe under Abraham then it's not under law.
If people abuse tithe doesn't make is wrong.

There is a pastor who preach against tithe In Bayelsa but every Sunday he ask for people to sow seed. There is no abolishment of tithe anywhere in the Bible. Go through what I wrote, don't just jump to conclusions and assume things.

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ogiejoe(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 03:28:23:pm GMT


Mr preacher, where did the law start from? Where did it end? What's the purpose of the law and what's the law for and who is it for? If you can answer these questions then I will keep quiet.

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Ogiejoe(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 03:44:08:pm GMT


Yes I read it. I read the initial post and it's from there I drew my concern that first, there is no abolishment of the law, and that Tithe is not under the law because Abraham was not under the law but did give tithe and probably, he may not be the first to give tithe.

Tithe to me is not compulsory but was not abolished.

The pastor MAY be wrong in using the law on his member in the area of its consequence of not giving tithe.

If old testament was not for our edification, God would have told them to get rid of it. But it was not thrown away because Christ didn't abolish it but rather accomplish what was not complete in the law.

Like I asked the poster questions about the law of when it started who it's for, what it is, and to whom it was for.

The law was never meant for the gentiles but for the Israelites only and there was a purpose. But in this grace period that it goes towards the gentiles, somethings meant for the Israelites were accomplished in Christ but didn't abolish them.

The poster have his own beliefs and I have mine but making that "pastor and judge" ( which is a lie only trying to persuade people to believe his beliefs) to me the story doesn't match up to me

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Administrator(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 05:07:27:pm GMT

The poster have his own beliefs and I have mine but making that "pastor and judge" ( which is a lie only trying to persuade people to believe his beliefs) to me the story doesn't match up to me
Well, if those mega pastors in Nigeria believe and preach that people who don't pay tithes are cursed and doomed for hell fire, then they are the ones you should be arguing with except you believe what they say.

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Administrator(m) .:. Sun, 16 May, 2021 - 06:19:10:pm GMT

Tithing was an instruction directed to the children of Israel, it was a means through which the nation of Israel raised finance and made provisions for the Levites.
Interestingly, tithing is not even practiced in Israel today, they have evolved a more efficient way of raising money through modern taxation system, but yet, these greedy money monging billionaire owners of mega churches who call themselves "men of God" continue to impose the bondage of tithing on their gullible members with threats of God's curses on those who want to hold on to the freedom that Christ has given us.

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Re: About tithe: Church Pastor Vs Court Judge by: Wonders(f) .:. Sat, 29 May, 2021 - 05:40:19:pm GMT

As I was going through this post it just occurred to me the experience my sister shared with me some days back.
So during my sister's leave this year march, she traveled to her husband's place in Kogi state. When she went to her husband's church for the first time, that very day, they made her join a particular group without really given her time to think about it.

She spent one month with her husband and at a time they went to another church, this people didn't see it fit to visit or even call her for once to check up on her throughout her stay. So when she came back to Abuja, they gave her a call one day but she was not available to pick then the next day she saw a text from them. They had sent a message to her that she needs to pay some amount of money for church funds. Can you just imagine! They didn't even check on her for once but all that matters to them is money.

The truth is the major reason why the church is the way it is today is because the people we call elders and pastors are actually leading the people astray. It is only someone that decided to be a pastor or a leader in church out of frustrations that will be enslaving the people of the church this way.
Instead of them to find something meaningful doing that will meet their need they have turn the church to money collecting medium.

My take on giving, tithe and offerings whatsoever is that there are so many blessings attached to it but thank goodness, God has given us a free will for everything, he has given us a choice to choose whatsoever we want. Why can't the church elders operate in this same way? Its really a shame!

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